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 Looking at Superman compared to Batman.

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AlexfromLubbock
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PostSubject: Looking at Superman compared to Batman.    Sat Nov 20, 2010 5:00 pm

I made this thread up because I have seen comments over the net that Grant Morrison should leave the Batman books (I am still unable to get the whole of the podcast so I don't know if it was brought up there) so new writers can come in and either reset the status quo to pre RIP or think Morrison's long ruin is hurting Batman. Well I do not think that would be to beneficial to Batman at the moment.

Looking at Superman he himself a few years ago underwent some massive mythology change ups in the New Krypton arc with the arrival of 1,000 Kryptonians. This could have been a big move in the Superman mythos but this story line was jump started by Geoff Johns the other biggest writer at DC but since he left the arc the storyline lost focus it lost fans and maybe the support of the DC editorial staff. Maybe in a attempt to give some life to Superman J Michael Strazynski was given absolute control of Superman's story he was kept out of Action Comics his own book for another year some say JMS demanded this mandate he himself denies it. So JMS started his Grounded arc while not a terrible story it has come across as fans as preaching to the audience and seems to have people complaining there is no significant story other then walking.

In recent days giving interviews Strazynski himself has said he came to DC to write Superman Earth One then was offered the monthly Superman book this kind of cements my belief that Earth One is his imagination at work while Grounded was less thought out after reading some of the first issues of Grounded and comparing it to Earth One Earth One was better and since it was a hit DC rightfully decided to make a sequel with the same creative team and as a result JMS will leave the Superman monthly.

The bad news is that it leaves Superman to some harm Chris Roberson the new reader has been given the task of completing Grounded based on notes from JMS. It makes the books late this past Friday DC announced G Willow Wilson will write a fill in the second in three months not only that but it is a major title at DC.

Currently Superman is in one book big decisions made by writers are being resolved by other writers James Robinson has said he did not have the idea of ending New Krypton nor killing off so many of the characters he said he thought some more could have been done with those concepts. Superman has shrunken to a level of popularity he does not deserve he has one book not satisfying many writers if he had other books then maybe some fans will be more impressed or content.

Allot of these problems have not happened to Batman I think because Batman has been doing the main story for years maybe it is unfair he has the majority of the story but other writers have their own books and now even in this current Inc era many writers have their own take own character own style. It is better the Batman having one book with major changes with a writer leaving or others providing fill ins for the major series.

Batman fans have had scheduling problems artistic changes maybe but nothing to the degree of Superman so things are better compared to the other major hero. Maybe this was just my own personal problems with Superman comics now and how I am fine with Batman now. Maybe in a year Batman will suffer from the same problems though at this momentum I am not sure that will happen. Thoughts disagreements?

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PostSubject: Re: Looking at Superman compared to Batman.    Sat Nov 20, 2010 6:49 pm

I was disappointed when JMS decided to leave Superman (and Wonder Woman). I thought it was pretty and I didn't feel like I was being preached to but I can see how some readers feel like that; I just thought it feels like JMS was just bringing Superman back to Earth. Anyway, I do kind of feel that Grant Morrison should leave the Batman titles. I feel like he has already told his story and he is dragging on but I'm willing to stay on and read the stories because I think he is one of the best writers I've read, I want to believe that he is going to write another great Batman story.
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PostSubject: Re: Looking at Superman compared to Batman.    Wed Nov 24, 2010 6:25 pm

I love Superman, but I agree with you guys....it kinda "bites" that they rush through the New Krypton storyline so that JMS can take over....he does decent, though not Spidey or Thor numbers, Supes numbers did rise a bit....then JMS decides to leave the monthly Superman comic. That sorta leaves everything up in the air....if I was a writer, I wouldn't want to have to come in and take over for a well-known & popular writer...and have to finish his story based on his "notes". I love JMS, and I understand why he is leaving the monthlies (after reading his interview w/ Newsarama), but it kinda sucks for Superman.

All that said, I think Superman is slowly becoming out-of-touch with mainstream comic book readers and society as a whole. Why? I think it has to do with traditional family breakdown, changes in acceptable morality, and what society now deems as good......the "cheesy" good guy is out, the darker "vigilante" is in. Notice how Captain America's sales skyrocketed when Ed Brubaker began making that change in the character for Marvel. Capt. America was Marvel's equivalent to Superman....everyone loves him, but no one reads him.....now he is one of their best sellers.

Can the same be done with Supes? I don't know. Making a god-like character darker can be tricky. Everyone loves Superman....but less and less are reading him. His t-shirts still sell, I see plenty of non-comicbook readers wearing his t-shirts, but that can't save the character. It's not the writers' fault, I just wonder what can be done with an ultimate good guy (you could add Captain Marvel to this discussion easily as well) other than relegate him to children's cartoons and books.....which is sad because I love Superman!
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PostSubject: Re: Looking at Superman compared to Batman.    Wed Nov 24, 2010 9:22 pm

I totally agree with you! I make no secret of my love for Superman, even though I work on a Batman site. Batman was my original favorite, due to the movies in the 80's and 90's and the animated series, but Superman has edged him out as my #1. The problem is, the reason I love him are the reasons he's considered outdated; he's a true-blue, totally altruistic "perfect" hero. And I'm not even talking about his abilities or anything, he's just a good guy in general. I love his classic, iconic costume, and the fact that he stands for "Truth, Justice, and the American Way". He's really an awesome American symbol as well; he is the perfect immigrant, raised in middle America by wonderful parents to have great values and morals, and made something of himself by helping others. The problem is, that's just not interesting to people today. Nobody wants to see a guy with goofy underwear over his pants who always does the right thing, it's considered boring and predictable and outdated. That's why I have high hopes for the movie coming out in 2012...it can hopefully be what Superman Returns wasn't for the public and really bring Superman back to the forefront.

-Gary
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PostSubject: Re: Looking at Superman compared to Batman.    Mon Nov 29, 2010 7:38 pm

gallegra wrote:
I totally agree with you! I make no secret of my love for Superman, even though I work on a Batman site. Batman was my original favorite, due to the movies in the 80's and 90's and the animated series, but Superman has edged him out as my #1. The problem is, the reason I love him are the reasons he's considered outdated; he's a true-blue, totally altruistic "perfect" hero. And I'm not even talking about his abilities or anything, he's just a good guy in general. I love his classic, iconic costume, and the fact that he stands for "Truth, Justice, and the American Way". He's really an awesome American symbol as well; he is the perfect immigrant, raised in middle America by wonderful parents to have great values and morals, and made something of himself by helping others. The problem is, that's just not interesting to people today. Nobody wants to see a guy with goofy underwear over his pants who always does the right thing, it's considered boring and predictable and outdated. That's why I have high hopes for the movie coming out in 2012...it can hopefully be what Superman Returns wasn't for the public and really bring Superman back to the forefront.

-Gary
I highly concur.
I hate to say this, but Superman is somewhat of an old "shell" of what America used to be. I mean, Superman gets made fun of where I am at. He's quite out of place. No one in America is patriotic as they used to be. You totally hit it right with your statements.

But you can't really change Superman's demeanor. He's the epitome of perfect good. Equality. Geniality. He does stand for justice at its best.

Unfortunately, everyone heads for a darker corner, and wants a more vicious being. It's odd.
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PostSubject: Re: Looking at Superman compared to Batman.    Tue Nov 30, 2010 11:38 am

Fawks wrote:
I hate to say this, but Superman is somewhat of an old "shell" of what America used to be. I mean, Superman gets made fun of where I am at. He's quite out of place. No one in America is patriotic as they used to be...Unfortunately, everyone heads for a darker corner, and wants a more vicious being. It's odd.

The strange thing is though, he's still the first and most popular superhero overall, even globally. Brian Singer made the point once while promoting Superman Returns, if you went out to an obscure part of Africa with a Cross and the Superman shield, you'd get 50/50 recognition. There's more Superman shirts out there than ever, and musicians still make references to Superman when talking about heroes, power or invincibility. Yet, because of "darker" heroes like Batman and most of Marvel's fare, people aren't so interested in Supes anymore. It's kinda sad, really, that the heyday of Superman (at least in his current form) is gone. Smallville's still chugging along in it's last season, and Superman Earth Two did really well, but the traditional version of the character just isn't "cool" anymore.

-Gary
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PostSubject: Re: Looking at Superman compared to Batman.    Tue Nov 30, 2010 7:45 pm

I do not believe it is that people only like dark things either I think it is a fear of taking Superman to either new places or unseen or unexpected places. The current Batman era has had it's share of detractors but in the end people are buying the comics and seeing the movies.

With Superman movies a writer has been more dedicated to following in the footsteps of Donner Singer also admitted to not really knowing him in the comics and preferred the movies giving him a compromised view he also ended up making Superman a martyr more then a hero. No one liked it hurting him at the movies it's no wonder he has to start up again I hope the new film makes up for it.

Smallville has it's flaws but in the end it's premise hurts it since it is not meant to be the true Superman so there is only so much that can be done.

I still think with the comics it's writers lack of commitment more then anything else which is why I think a writer should come in have a great story and stick with him.
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PostSubject: Re: Looking at Superman compared to Batman.    Wed Dec 01, 2010 2:24 pm

That's probably true...it's more that nobody is willing to risk taking him to new places.

-Gary
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PostSubject: Re: Looking at Superman compared to Batman.    Wed Dec 01, 2010 3:39 pm

You're right! Nothing new has been done in Superman since the "Death of Superman" & his marriage. Supes is becoming a lot like the tv series Rome, or The Tudors, or Spartacus......they are enjoyable, but you pretty much already know what is going to happen.

They need a REAL shake-up! Something that has never been done before (which is hard for a character that's been around since 1939), or (like John's did with G.L.) a story dating back to some obscure event that took place decades ago. Something that can evolve the character while not losing the foundation of who he is and what he stands for.
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PostSubject: Re: Looking at Superman compared to Batman.    Wed Dec 01, 2010 6:38 pm

Jon Q. Citizen wrote:
You're right! Nothing new has been done in Superman since the "Death of Superman" & his marriage. Supes is becoming a lot like the tv series Rome, or The Tudors, or Spartacus......they are enjoyable, but you pretty much already know what is going to happen.

They need a REAL shake-up! Something that has never been done before (which is hard for a character that's been around since 1939), or (like John's did with G.L.) a story dating back to some obscure event that took place decades ago. Something that can evolve the character while not losing the foundation of who he is and what he stands for.
Hm... On Superman/Batman Annual, #4 I think it is (the cover has Terry M. as BB and some black superman costume'd guy.) maybe should have Superman fight some future being or something.. Eh. I'm not quiet sure what they could do. I was never interested in Superman, but his cousins were always interesting.
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PostSubject: Re: Looking at Superman compared to Batman.    Wed Dec 01, 2010 10:54 pm

I love Superman, but early 90's Kon El is a VERY close second. Modern Superboy is just meh to me, but I loved that full of himself punk kid he used to be. Now he's basically a young Superman.

-Gary
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PostSubject: Re: Looking at Superman compared to Batman.    Wed Dec 01, 2010 11:09 pm

Fawks wrote:
Jon Q. Citizen wrote:
You're right! Nothing new has been done in Superman since the "Death of Superman" & his marriage. Supes is becoming a lot like the tv series Rome, or The Tudors, or Spartacus......they are enjoyable, but you pretty much already know what is going to happen.

They need a REAL shake-up! Something that has never been done before (which is hard for a character that's been around since 1939), or (like John's did with G.L.) a story dating back to some obscure event that took place decades ago. Something that can evolve the character while not losing the foundation of who he is and what he stands for.
Hm... On Superman/Batman Annual, #4 I think it is (the cover has Terry M. as BB and some black superman costume'd guy.) maybe should have Superman fight some future being or something.. Eh. I'm not quiet sure what they could do. I was never interested in Superman, but his cousins were always interesting.

Superman's Cousins. Funniest thing I've heard today. Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: Looking at Superman compared to Batman.    Wed Dec 01, 2010 11:11 pm

ballpointbanana wrote:
Fawks wrote:
Jon Q. Citizen wrote:
You're right! Nothing new has been done in Superman since the "Death of Superman" & his marriage. Supes is becoming a lot like the tv series Rome, or The Tudors, or Spartacus......they are enjoyable, but you pretty much already know what is going to happen.

They need a REAL shake-up! Something that has never been done before (which is hard for a character that's been around since 1939), or (like John's did with G.L.) a story dating back to some obscure event that took place decades ago. Something that can evolve the character while not losing the foundation of who he is and what he stands for.
Hm... On Superman/Batman Annual, #4 I think it is (the cover has Terry M. as BB and some black superman costume'd guy.) maybe should have Superman fight some future being or something.. Eh. I'm not quiet sure what they could do. I was never interested in Superman, but his cousins were always interesting.

Superman's Cousins. Funniest thing I've heard today. Laughing
Why? :c
Did I say something wrong??
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PostSubject: Re: Looking at Superman compared to Batman.    Thu Dec 02, 2010 11:54 am

Back in the late 80’s and early 90’s I was hearing the same things about Superman. His books were not selling, even though they were the cheapest books on the market (75 cents) and there was talk of canceling some of his books. Then Superman was killed and his book became one of the best selling comics of all time.
I have not been reading Superman for the last few years, but I think he needs a very good writer to take charge of the stories and get back to Superman’s roots. The first Superman comic came out when the world was a dark and scary place, the world economy was in The Great Depression, Hitler was in control of Germany, Japan was aggressively attacking its neighbors. Superman became a symbol for what is good in this world. He can still be that symbol.
The problem is that Superman writers tend to ignore the bad stuff this world has to offer and they would rather write a story with Superman beating up a guy in funny looking pajamas. In Batman the writers show all the ugliness, greediness, and criminality of the world and they have Batman attack it head on, as Gordon says in The Dark Knight “He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. A dark knight.” I would like to see a Superman story where Clark has to deal with the fact that more people today act like and think like Lex Luthor than Ma and Pa Kent.
If DC wants Superman to survive they have to make his thinking more radical and more political. Lets see him (as Supes or Clark) stand up for small farmers (That is his parents business after all). Lets see him stand up for the disenfranchised and take on a problem that he can’t solve with his fists. Clark should not go darker, but needs to be less bland. I think this is what JMS was trying to do with his “Walk” Superman helps someone by letting him slam dunk on him during a pick up basketball game. I did not read the issue, but I did see that one of the issues dealt with domestic abuse. Let’s see a story where the Daily Planet closes down since newspapers everywhere are going out of business and let’s see Clark try to find a new job.

-Superman's Cousins - Over my head, please explain?

The Joker: See, I'm a man of simple tastes. I like dynamite, and gunpowder... And gasoline! Do you know what all of these things have in common? They're cheap!
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PostSubject: Re: Looking at Superman compared to Batman.    Thu Dec 02, 2010 1:11 pm

I really like a lot of those ideas...you should write in to DC haha. That's exactly what Superman needs, to be made relevant again by dealing with the issues and crime of the day, rather than aliens that the GL's or Justice League can fight together.

Superman's Cousins = Superboy and Supergirl, Dane just thought it sounded funny (which it kinda does haha).

-Gary

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PostSubject: Re: Looking at Superman compared to Batman.    Thu Dec 02, 2010 10:24 pm

gallegra wrote:
I really like a lot of those ideas...you should write in to DC haha. That's exactly what Superman needs, to be made relevant again by dealing with the issues and crime of the day, rather than aliens that the GL's or Justice League can fight together.

-Gary

That's what I was thinking. He was onto something great there! I'm sure they're thinking critically over there. Superman is so perfect, it's hard to come up with something to take him down, unexpectedly of course. But I really like the points he made. It was a beautiful mini-essay. Hah.

gallegra wrote:
Superman's Cousins = Superboy and Supergirl, Dane just thought it sounded funny (which it kinda does haha).

-Gary

OH! I mean, I knew for a fact that, those are his cousins.. :C
What does everyone else refer to them as? Hee. Oh well. I mean, Supergirl is interesting. She can barely be on the same planet with Power Girl, which I thought was odd, but still. It was different material. Power Girl, I never knew she was related until a few years ago.
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PostSubject: Re: Looking at Superman compared to Batman.    Fri Dec 03, 2010 11:07 am

Fawks wrote:
Power Girl, I never knew she was related until a few years ago.

Technically she's not haha, but I know what you mean.

-Gary
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PostSubject: Re: Looking at Superman compared to Batman.    Sat Dec 04, 2010 8:21 pm

I was re-reading Batman Hush yesterday and I think Batman had a good line in it that sums up the difference between him and Superman, it is in Chapter 5 and Bruce says " Deep down, Clark's essentially a good person.... and deep down I'm not."
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PostSubject: Re: Looking at Superman compared to Batman.    Sat Dec 04, 2010 9:19 pm

iod1974 wrote:
I was re-reading Batman Hush yesterday and I think Batman had a good line in it that sums up the difference between him and Superman, it is in Chapter 5 and Bruce says " Deep down, Clark's essentially a good person.... and deep down I'm not."
Batman says some pretty good stuff.. I wish they could transition that into the films.

gallegra wrote:
Fawks wrote:
Power Girl, I never knew she was related until a few years ago.

Technically she's not haha, but I know what you mean.

-Gary
Seriously?? Oh geez..
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PostSubject: Re: Looking at Superman compared to Batman.    Sat Dec 04, 2010 9:22 pm

Fawks wrote:
iod1974 wrote:
I was re-reading Batman Hush yesterday and I think Batman had a good line in it that sums up the difference between him and Superman, it is in Chapter 5 and Bruce says " Deep down, Clark's essentially a good person.... and deep down I'm not."
Batman says some pretty good stuff.. I wish they could transition that into the films.

Agreed!

gallegra wrote:
Fawks wrote:
Power Girl, I never knew she was related until a few years ago.

Technically she's not haha, but I know what you mean.

-Gary
Seriously?? Oh geez..

She's the cousin of Kal-L from Earth 2, so technically not...but now that Earth 2 was merged in, she's on the same Earth as our Superman/girl.

-Gary
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PostSubject: Re: Looking at Superman compared to Batman.    Sat Dec 04, 2010 9:41 pm

gallegra wrote:
Fawks wrote:
iod1974 wrote:
I was re-reading Batman Hush yesterday and I think Batman had a good line in it that sums up the difference between him and Superman, it is in Chapter 5 and Bruce says " Deep down, Clark's essentially a good person.... and deep down I'm not."
Batman says some pretty good stuff.. I wish they could transition that into the films.

Agreed!

gallegra wrote:
Fawks wrote:
Power Girl, I never knew she was related until a few years ago.

Technically she's not haha, but I know what you mean.

-Gary
Seriously?? Oh geez..

She's the cousin of Kal-L from Earth 2, so technically not...but now that Earth 2 was merged in, she's on the same Earth as our Superman/girl.

-Gary
This is exactly why I never got into Superman. Totally insane family tree.
What was that... Infinite Crisis, right?
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PostSubject: Re: Looking at Superman compared to Batman.    Sat Dec 04, 2010 10:47 pm

I'm a huge Superman fan, but I've never been able to get into any of the "family". Batman has a "family" that's legit, so does Flash.....but Superman? I know you have to have someone with your back when you're a superhero, but if I was Supergirl or Superboy.....I'd be irked about being referred to as girl and boy. Dick Grayson didn't become Batboy....he became Nightwing! Tim Drake didn't become Batboy either, but Red Robin!

I've never really been into Powergirl or Supergirl, although I like their characters both in JSA & the recent storylines of New Krypton and Cry for Justice.....and they seem to hold their own on their respective titles. I don't know, but everytime I see the "S" or hear "kryptonian" all I can think of is Superman.
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PostSubject: Re: Looking at Superman compared to Batman.    Sun Dec 05, 2010 12:23 am

@Fawks It's really not that the Superman family is crazy, it's just that for some reason the Superman family from Earth 2 has played more of a role than most of the other heroes' alternates, making it really confusing. And yeah, they were merged in and Kal-L died during Infinite Crisis.

@Jon I can understand that, and I'll agree with that statement...except for 90's (first appearance) Kon-El. I loved the heck outta him, with his punk attitude and all that. I was really bummed when they used modern-day Kon instead of how he was during the 90's when Young Justice was formed for the YJ cartoon. Kon now is basically a young Superman; he doesn't have to deal with the issue of being stuck at 16 anymore, since that was fixed, he's lost the attitude and the cool look with the leather jacket and his altered Superman suit...yeah, I miss it haha. But other than that, I can see why you'd say that about the Supes family. I've tried a few times to get into them, like with the new Power Girl series and Adventure Comics featuring Superboy, but I really haven't been able to make myself follow it regularly.

-Gary
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PostSubject: Re: Looking at Superman compared to Batman.    Sun Dec 05, 2010 12:18 pm

Superman's family has always been complcated, Superboy is a clone of both Superman and Lex Luthor and Supergirl is 3 or 4 different people. But I think that is what makes Superman's family interesting.
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PostSubject: Re: Looking at Superman compared to Batman.    Sun Dec 05, 2010 12:27 pm

joezilla87 wrote:
Supergirl is 3 or 4 different people...

By that you mean there has been 3 or 4 different Supergirls, right? And if that's what you mean I don't know how that's any more complicated than there having been 5 Batgirls or 6 Robins. But I get what you're saying, I guess it's a bit different having a Superboy who's a clone of Superman with Lex's DNA mixed in is a bit different than just having a new person become Robin.

-Gary
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